[xquery-talk] here it comes, yet another version of XQuery and/or JSONiq

[daniela florescu]

https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview

Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???

I will never understand how those guys think….

Dana
_______________________________________________
***@x-qu

[Kristian Kankainen]

Hello

Dana, not to defend those guys, but to describe my understanding of how
those guys think ...

I think it has to do with our more general, call it cognitive, human
language capacities. It is much easier for humans to use the metaphors
that they allready know, than it is to learn new metaphors. Thus, I
think sadly, it is "easier" for people to (re-)invent a language based
on their own underlying metaphors, than to learn the metaphors that are
implicit in any allready existing language. Languages and the metaphors
they get fuelled by are so totally meshed together it is hard to tell
them apart, thus it is easier to keep them apart by reinventing them.

The above is totally philosophical and has perhaps nothing to do with
computer languages nor with human cognitive skills (since it tends to be
utterly hard to prove them) and reflects only my own thoughts.

The above has come to me mainly while reflecting Alan Kay's saga. His
object-orientation(ism), graphical user interfaces or even his saying
that "with a good enough programming language, there is no need for an
operating system". I mean, the world as I know it (I was born long after
Alan Kay thought of those things) seems to have understood absolutely
nothing of what he was trying to tell! And most upsetting is that I have
real hard times trying to understand Kay's world so that I can give my
child a computer with SmallTalk instead of an absurd touchscreen device
that calls itself smart.

You are good at guessing games and it is really sad to see history
repeat itself. Guessing kind of implies something repeating. Alan Kay
has also criticized computer science to be a popular culture.

Kristian K

Post by daniela florescu
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think….
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
***@x-query.com
ht

[Ihe Onwuka]

Why don't you ask them?

Post by daniela florescu
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not
fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[Michael Kay]

It will be a sad day when the world stops trying to create better programming languages.

Fortunately, though, the vast majority of attempts will be consigned to the scrap heap.

Michael Kay
Saxonica
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[Ihe Onwuka]

The keyword in there is better which requires you to know what else is out
there.

Mulesoft

Post by Michael Kay
It will be a sad day when the world stops trying to create better programming languages.
Fortunately, though, the vast majority of attempts will be consigned to the scrap heap.
Michael Kay
Saxonica

[daniela florescu]

Michael,

Yes, it wold be indeed sad if we wouldn’t continuously try to do things better.

But what is really sad is that the motivation isn’t that in most cases: it’s because proprietary
software brings more margins then using standards….so it’s money.

Look what happened with the browsers: they are almost killed (or they will be soon)
because of proprietary SDKs from Google and Apple.

And from the users point of view, the world of applications is worse, not better, for that …..

Just Google and Apple got more monopoly then they used to have ..:(

Dana

Post by Michael Kay
It will be a sad day when the world stops trying to create better programming languages.
Fortunately, though, the vast majority of attempts will be consigned to the scrap heap.
Michael Kay
Saxonica

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[daniela florescu]

And don’t get me wrong…I have nothing against companies trying to make money. It’s their JOB.
It’s what they are supposed to do, not to make a charity.

However, what bothers me is the bad technology combined with lack of business logic.

Because this proprietary software works well when you ALREADY have a monopoly of some sort over
some market (aka a leverage over the market), like Google or Apple do.

It hardly works when you just try to make living and survive …. like in the case of CouchDB, MarkLogic or Mulesoft….

In those cases, more often then not, a “proprietary” approach just sinks those companies … because educating the
market costs a lot of money, and there is no economy of scale.

That’s the lack of business logic that surprises me….

If Mulesoft would have used XQuery, XSLT or JSONiq, they would have gotten instantaneously thousands of educated
developers — aka economy of scale.

Best
Dana

Post by daniela florescu
Michael,
Yes, it wold be indeed sad if we wouldn’t continuously try to do things better.
But what is really sad is that the motivation isn’t that in most cases: it’s because proprietary
software brings more margins then using standards….so it’s money.
Look what happened with the browsers: they are almost killed (or they will be soon)
because of proprietary SDKs from Google and Apple.
And from the users point of view, the world of applications is worse, not better, for that …..
Just Google and Apple got more monopoly then they used to have ..:(
Dana

Post by Michael Kay
It will be a sad day when the world stops trying to create better programming languages.
Fortunately, though, the vast majority of attempts will be consigned to the scrap heap.
Michael Kay
Saxonica

_______________________________________________
***@x-query.co

[Ihe Onwuka]

Let me amplify my question.

It should be clear from the recent linkedin discussion that for a large
section of people using JSON syntax matters. So they will not understand
your assertion that XQuery is an extension of SQL. Any similarities in the
semantics and/or capabilities of the language are clouded by the
"unfamiliar syntax".

It should also be clear that alot of the same people are happy to accept a
partial even half baked solution so long as it is coated in familiar syntax
and are wllling to dive in and use such products without assesing their
capabilities. If you have forgotten this recall the person who was
trumpeting an SQL implementation over JSON that could not do summation.

Couchbase and co are tapping into the fact that there is a significant
market for whom functionality and capability are far less important than
appealing to their sense of familiarity. You could say the argument for
these products is the 80/20 rule although how you ever get to add up to 80%
with a product that can't do summations defeats me. Whatever the case it
should be very clear that many people would rather use a halfbaked SQL
implementation than use XQuery.

With mulesoft it is different because XQuery should be familiar to them.
That's why I say ask them. You may well get a different response.

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Why don't you ask them?

Post by daniela florescu
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not
fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[daniela florescu]

Ihe,

I did.

But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.

Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Why don't you ask them?
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview <https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview>
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[Ihe Onwuka]

Somebody in that company has.

http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/

I believe I posted this to the list before.

Post by daniela florescu
Ihe,
I did.
But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of
XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.
Dana
Why don't you ask them?

Post by daniela florescu
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not
fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[daniela florescu]

It seems that they made an honest attempt to implement XQuery.

But in the world where there are so many good open source ones, why would they want to
do yet another one ?

Who knows.

Truth is: doing a good implementation of XQuery is not immediate, and it’s not for the fainted
of heart, either 
..

So if they abandoned because they weren’t able to finish the XQuery, or make it fast enough

 this wouldn’t surprise me.

Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Somebody in that company has.
http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/ <http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/>
I believe I posted this to the list before.
Ihe,
I did.
But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.
Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Why don't you ask them?
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview <https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview>
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[Michael Kay]

Actually I think Mulesoft is using Saxon underneath the hood. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong).

Michael Kay
Saxonica

Post by daniela florescu
It seems that they made an honest attempt to implement XQuery.
But in the world where there are so many good open source ones, why would they want to
do yet another one ?
Who knows.
Truth is: doing a good implementation of XQuery is not immediate, and it’s not for the fainted
of heart, either 
..
So if they abandoned because they weren’t able to finish the XQuery, or make it fast enough

 this wouldn’t surprise me.
Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Somebody in that company has.
http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/ <http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/>
I believe I posted this to the list before.
Ihe,
I did.
But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.
Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Why don't you ask them?
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview <https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview>
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[daniela florescu]

Dear Michael,

Actually, that’s GREAT news.

This shows that they have some common sense, and some good taste :-))
(unlike the CouchDB people :-)

Now, I cannot stop of asking myself
. why did they feel the need to “cover” the power
of XQuery with a home-grown/proprietary (AND very limited) XML/JSON mapping syntax 
.!???

Any ideas !?

Best regards
Dana

Post by Michael Kay
Actually I think Mulesoft is using Saxon underneath the hood. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong).
Michael Kay
Saxonica

Post by daniela florescu
It seems that they made an honest attempt to implement XQuery.
But in the world where there are so many good open source ones, why would they want to
do yet another one ?
Who knows.
Truth is: doing a good implementation of XQuery is not immediate, and it’s not for the fainted
of heart, either 
..
So if they abandoned because they weren’t able to finish the XQuery, or make it fast enough

 this wouldn’t surprise me.
Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Somebody in that company has.
http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/ <http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/>
I believe I posted this to the list before.
Ihe,
I did.
But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.
Dana

Post by Ihe Onwuka
Why don't you ask them?
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview <https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview>
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk <http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk>

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

[Ihe Onwuka]

They didn't know about JSONiq

Post by daniela florescu
Dear Michael,
Actually, that’s GREAT news.
This shows that they have some common sense, and some good taste :-))
(unlike the CouchDB people :-)
Now, I cannot stop of asking myself
. why did they feel the need to
“cover” the power
of XQuery with a home-grown/proprietary (AND very limited) XML/JSON
mapping syntax 
.!???
Any ideas !?
Best regards
Dana
Actually I think Mulesoft is using Saxon underneath the hood. (Someone
correct me if I’m wrong).
Michael Kay
Saxonica
It seems that they made an honest attempt to implement XQuery.
But in the world where there are so many good open source ones, why would they want to
do yet another one ?
Who knows.
Truth is: doing a good implementation of XQuery is not immediate, and it’s
not for the fainted
of heart, either 
..
So if they abandoned because they weren’t able to finish the XQuery, or
make it fast enough

 this wouldn’t surprise me.
Dana
Somebody in that company has.
http://blogs.mulesoft.com/mule-3-6-xml-xpath-xslt-xquery3/
I believe I posted this to the list before.

Post by daniela florescu
Ihe,
I did.
But honestly, I am very scared of the real answer: they’ve never heard of
XQuery, XSLT, or JSONiq
.
Dana
Why don't you ask them?

Post by daniela florescu
https://developer.mulesoft.com/docs/display/37M1/Overview
Why do people have so much fun reinventing stuff that was DEFINITELY not
fun to specify in the first
place !???
I will never understand how those guys think
.
Dana
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk

_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk
_______________________________________________
http://x-query.com/mailman/listinfo/talk